Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Discussion of the location and operation of public EV charging infrastructure in Scotland
noahs-dad
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Location: Dunbar, East Lothian

Re: Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Postby noahs-dad » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:09 pm

I have to agree it does not sound good. The charging provision for the majority of the country is shabby in many, many ways (not just about if the equipment is working or not), and it really is not worth that much at all.

Is the 4.5% transaction fee a card fee to cover costs associated to VISA, Mastercard etc or whoever?

Martin Lee wrote:So if you charge a £1 for a charge 47.7p goes to Charge Place Scotland.


Which means 47.7p goes to CYC? Or are you referring to 47.7p goes to CPS as in Transport Scotland?

None of this seems clear, not helped by whatever goes to CPS could potentially go to CYC, TS, or the CPO (typical a Local Gov. Council). Sorry if further confusing!

Would be interesting to have a clear breakdown of what goes to who:

- How much to TS (if any)
- How much does CYC get
- How much does a CPO get
- And any other costs that go elsewhere, i.e. card fee charging perhaps

If you take Dundee and the odd other area out of the equation, the overall provision has not really progresed well over the last 12 months, in many areas it has gone back the way, or at best been static.

It is also dreadful timing, living costs and so on are tight for many people. Like most of you my Council tax has just gone up again for 2019/2020 year (up by 3%), and like most of you my wage has not gone up and remains static.

I don't see that things are in a good place, I just read on BBC news I think it was yesterday than 1 in 3 car sales in Norway are electric. Just look at the state of the UK (and Scotland). It is disjointed and a shambles.

Eek!

roscoe
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:48 am

Re: Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Postby roscoe » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:39 am

charge at home with solar, near free
charge at home at night on tariff deal 5p
charge at home day time < 15p
charge at work, declare 15p as BIK

use someone elses electricity, out&about when needed
~15p on fast
~ 25p on rapids
~ £100 per kw on motorway service stations

boy that simplified view would educate and trim behaviour ...

of course instant public taser'ings for ice parking at charge bays would help, evs doing the same when not plugging in or near battery full should have there domestic electricity cut off for a month, happy to accept above stuff first :)

btw I do know 15/25p is a dream and charge point owners and councils can set wotever they want....

Martin Lee
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Re: Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Postby Martin Lee » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:11 am

Perhaps I wasn't very clear and I think I made a slight error in the calculation anyway.

For a £1 fee. The first call on the £1 is tax 16.67p (20% VAT) This leaves 83.33p.

Chargemaster, or CYC or CPS effectively all the same then take a fixed 36p connection fee and a 4.5% of the transaction value fee, which comes to 40.5p leaving just 42.83p for the site host. 57.17p goes elsewhere 40.5p plus VAT is actually 48.6p I think I only added VAT to the fixed fee of 36p


Average kWh taken on an AC charger is about 6kW so a suggested fee of 15p per kWh with a £1 minimum will only yield a £1 fee to the driver with 42p going to the site host to pay for electricity. Its doubtful that they can source electricity for only 7p per kWh never mind covering the other costs for a charge point for repairs, standing charge etc.

The 4.5% of transaction value is perhaps reasonable, I don't know, but the 36p connection charge before VAT seams to be excessive.

noahs-dad
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Location: Dunbar, East Lothian

Re: Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Postby noahs-dad » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:56 pm

Thank you for the clarification Martin, very interesting! Great news as assumed for the CYC coffers and profits column on their spreadsheet.

Scotland is so not ready for this as a whole if this happens, even if only a connection fee basis. What an utter mess of a shambles we are in right now. It looked good for a while too. I am in my 5th year of this, so all in and not going back now. I am hardcore green in many ways with daily life, but I speak to many others who don't have the same commitment or desire to be electric with driving (not judging), and I understandy why some talk of quitting and sometimes do so. So many more talk of starting, but never do, also easy to see why.

Recently Mike from East Coast Organics was stating having to go back to his oil vans as the East Lothian rapid network is 75% down for some months now, with 1 single working rapid for the whole county available outside a Council office (not best location). Just one particular example... a complete shambles.

It frankly isn't worth 1p per kWh, and I seriously mean that with 100% sincerity.

roscoe
Posts: 171
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Re: Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Postby roscoe » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:33 am

dear noah,

I am also very saddened with public money funding a very nice 'starter network' that is now under performing in terms of reliability and has lost interest in repairing these publicly funded assets, but hey wiping my tears aside and looking forwards.... this was a first step not the journey

It ain't gonna be free, we need commercial enterprises to provision far more decent charge points of all shapes and sizes and EV adoption increases, TS/scot-gov/councils aint gonna pay. The fees are going to go through growing pains and have viability then competitive and demand cycles before we reach a suitable future.

Apart from wanting everything fixed and forever free, what positive ideas do you have ?

(for me its hoose charging and Elons superchargerV3 at 30p kwh in a good dream)

noahs-dad
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Re: Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Postby noahs-dad » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:28 pm

roscoe wrote:Apart from wanting everything fixed and forever free, what positive ideas do you have ?


1. Get PHEV's of the rapid network.
2. Needs a road law or whatever law remit it falls under for any charging fees incurred, must be displayed at the charger.
3. Network needs more double Rapid facilities, and a more frequent spread, i.e. every 10 or 15 miles min between rapids on main routes.
4. EVERY Rapid charger needs signposted, just like a Motorway services, or Castle or any other Tourist Attraction is signposted in Scotland.

That is really just for starters too...

Segway to a personal side story. In summary should have got home about 6.30pm but got home at 9.30 pm last Friday night. Long story short, Berwick Upon Tweed Rapid (technically situated on English soil but on CYC network) was down, could not access Eyemouth Rapid due to unforeseen accident resulting in a long road closure, then had to slow crawl to Duns (way off A1 route and big detour) over 1hr to end up T2 charging, as could not get remote use of phone to work and could not find Duns Rapid in the dark. And you think that is worth 30p/kWh, fair enough if that is your opinion, but not one I share.

Plenty varied reasons given on previous posts on here and over last 12 months alone why the Rapid network in Scotland is not worth 1p/kWh.

Also there is about 5 people available in Scotland who can actually repair and service a Rapid charger. I don't see the fruit in the myth, that we all start paying 30p/kWh and instead of waiting months for a down Rapid to be repaired, that it gets fixed next day. Now that really is a dream and fantasty.

roscoe wrote:(for me its hoose charging and Elons superchargerV3 at 30p kwh in a good dream)


30p per kWh is utter madness. After all these years of austerity and static wages and rising living costs, 30p kWh to the average man/woman is horrendous. Remember we are still well behind and trying to encourage BEV adoption.

I don't really see how Musk is relevant in the UK. He has done very little, a few Tesla chargers? So what I say.

I don't mean to sound blunt or direct, just trying to respond as best as I can. Don't mind the debate or counter argument/disagreement at all.

roscoe
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:48 am

Re: Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Postby roscoe » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:06 pm

Ok, here we go.

1. Get PHEV's of the rapid network.
Possibly, but just charge rapids at 30p/kwh and that more or less achieves your objective, never actually experienced PHEV issue myself outside shopping centres.

2. Needs a road law or whatever law remit it falls under for any charging fees incurred, must be displayed at the charger.
We're out of the dark ages, website or local screen is good enough, in the future dynamic load/time based prices are likely to appear, just a red tape request....

3. Network needs more double Rapid facilities, and a more frequent spread, i.e. every 10 or 15 miles min between rapids on main routes.
Hmmm, dribbles and drabbles & hide n seek. Expect our fleets of supermarkets or 'leisure' places could rattle in strings of 22kw AC sharing posts then more major route superdooper 'journey' charging stations all with an eye to 150kw next gen and having many 2/12+ bays, hey thats just like Tesla, oophs Tiered charge rates between rapid/AC will steer customers to different behaviour/expectation patterns. The usage patterns of free charging are meaningless.

4. EVERY Rapid charger needs signposted, just like a Motorway services, or Castle or any other Tourist Attraction is signposted in Scotland.
er only if policy is to stick hidden behind council offices etc, expect service/fuel stations will be commercial stepping stone. Also who knows what tech dev brings to market in next 20y.

----- running low range batteries and relying on CPS is something normal humans will not endure, you seem to need a longer range vehicle sometime in the horizon (as do I ) but as economics of tech/supply/demand and removal of sweeteners/freebies, the cost for me (expect you) to upgrade is currently very severe, like more than x2>x3 or more my bargain EV1 spend. If my personal circumstances reqd more long range/rapids, reality would be a bargain ICE vehicle for 5-10y when 64kw car get near 20k mark and 2nd hand mark pool develops.

Also there is about 5 people available in Scotland who can actually repair and service a Rapid charger. I don't see the fruit in the myth, that we all start paying 30p/kWh and instead of waiting months for a down Rapid to be repaired, that it gets fixed next day. Now that really is a dream and fantasty.

CPS website should name/shame down chargers in list rather than take them off the map, including how long down.
Central funding for rapid repair would be a less wasteful idea for public funds,.....

Rapids are an expensive asset and provide a time/benefit based choice, even 30p/kwh is probably subsided.
Cost and personal value are very different stories.

noahs-dad
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Re: Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Postby noahs-dad » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:20 pm

roscoe wrote:1. Get PHEV's of the rapid network.
Possibly, but just charge rapids at 30p/kwh and that more or less achieves your objective, never actually experienced PHEV issue myself outside shopping centres.


Different types of vehicles require different types of fueling. You don't have HGV's fueling up beside regular ICE cars at fuel stations. And you wouldn't charge every single oil driver a huge fee to refuel, with the specific reasoning of it is solely to discourage the vehicles that kill the network not to use it. More sensible is you just don't have those vehicles that kill the network able to use it.

No need to apply harsh fees and detract from the mission of progressing electric driving adoption.

roscoe wrote:2. Needs a road law or whatever law remit it falls under for any charging fees incurred, must be displayed at the charger.
We're out of the dark ages, website or local screen is good enough, in the future dynamic load/time based prices are likely to appear, just a red tape request....


A red tape request that has been needing addressed for ages now. Never seen a CYC charger in England that tells me what the charges are going to be. And CPS is CYC for all intents and purposes for us. It is not happening, and I have not heard anything otherwise from CYC to suggest their policy will change. The evidence from England is that connection fees and fee charging of CYC fee charging has in the main not improved the CYC service.

roscoe wrote:3. Network needs more double Rapid facilities, and a more frequent spread
Hmmm, dribbles and drabbles & hide n seek. Expect our fleets of supermarkets or 'leisure' places could rattle in strings of 22kw AC sharing posts then more major route superdooper 'journey' charging stations all with an eye to 150kw next gen and having many 2/12+ bays, hey thats just like Tesla, oophs Tiered charge rates between rapid/AC will steer customers to different behaviour/expectation patterns. The usage patterns of free charging are meaningless.


Tesco announced a huge plan for rollout of Rapid and T2 charging at most of their stores across the UK about 2 or 3 months ago. The T2's are to be free to use for customers. Sounds very interesting, however as we have seen before "UK" does not necessarily have inclusion or much reflection on Scotland. Hence this is presumably why there has not been much excitement about that development in Scottish online driving resources.

The spread is not just about vehicle range capability, it is better coverage, less queuing, better options and reliability, so when the nearest or one passed by is down, there is a reasonable gap to the next charger.

The usage patterns of free charging is skewed, you have a good point there, but not always entirely meaningless.

roscoe wrote:4. EVERY Rapid charger needs signposted, just like a Motorway services, or Castle or any other Tourist Attraction is signposted in Scotland.
er only if policy is to stick hidden behind council offices etc, expect service/fuel stations will be commercial stepping stone. Also who knows what tech dev brings to market in next 20y.


Your missing the point made. I don't personally want to be looking at my phone while driving around an unknown and unfamiliar area, with 1 way systems, lots of traffic, and perhaps even darkness, just to refuel. I don't even always get a signal either to look things like that up, not that it can even help sometimes. PS isn't it a chargeable offence now to drive and operate a phone? Please officer, cut me a break, I have 3% and I have been driving around for 20 minutes looking for the charger. Not sure that will play out well either:)

Elec driving chargers are not huge roofed constructions with the whole area all lit up and right beside main roads, with a nice convenient in/out entrance and exit road. You can't miss a oil fuel station or services, and even then motorway and main road ones are often signposted.

No idea how many elec. miles you have covered and how far ventured, but I have personally had numerous and countless experiences of hunting around for chargers that I know I am fairly close to, as have Sat Nav'd to a close point. I shouldn't have to drive round and round for x amount of time until stumble upon it. I should not be needing to stop to look up this app, and that site, and so on that may not even help. I should not have to get out and ask people who generally have no idea where it is either. This is basic stuff.

I have wasted countless hours over the years looking for chargers, it can be stressful too. All you need is a minibus parked in a certain position or even a transit van, and you might not see a charger. Throw in darkness, so much more fun to the challenge. Just last week I had a nightmare trying to find a Rapid in the Borders. Ironically the Borders have 2 examples of signposted chargers (Eyemouth + Newtown St. Boswells), can't think of many others, nothing springing to mind right now! This is such a basic requirement and easily rectified, but still it is not happening. Will 30p/kWh change that? I strongly suggest it won't.

roscoe wrote:Also there is about 5 people available in Scotland who can actually repair and service a Rapid charger.

CPS website should name/shame down chargers in list rather than take them off the map, including how long down.
Central funding for rapid repair would be a less wasteful idea for public funds,.....


One of your better ideas. Your saying they should do their job really. Your absolutely right they should. The CPS (CYC) website which is really just the CYC website copied and pasted to the CPS domain and with a CPS badge stuck on, is awful and a box ticker.

If you click on the 'Network News' tab on the CPS Site (here is a link https://chargeplacescotland.org/news/) the most recent news post is May 2018, about Train station chargers being down with no further updates or news after that. Shocking. I suppose CPS (CYC) would refer you to their Twitter feed or something.

Definitely standing by comment that the whole network infrastructure that includes all aspects of service (not just the chargers), is "not worth 1p/kWh". Would be delighted to review and adapt the comment when suitable and visible progress happens. One day....

Martin Lee
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Re: Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Postby Martin Lee » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:36 am

Starting to charge for the majority of the existing CPS network which is run by councils would give commercial operators a chance to step in an install their own chargers. They would likely charge 30-35p per kWh based on the prices in England and Wales. If Scottish Politicians want to provide subsidies to support the development of EV charging networks so as to encourage more people to drive EVs then there are options to do so which can fit in the middle of the gap between home charging at whatever your home rate is for electricity around 15p per kWh and the commercial operators at 30-35p per kWh.


I have in the past suggested 18p per kWh for AC posts up to 22kW and 24p per kWh for Rapids. Except in the highest use cases these are still subsidised rates even after the capital costs of connection have been subsidised by a government grant.

They do however have many advantages over free charging.

1. They encourage people who can charge at home to do so.
2. They encourage people who have the time to charge on an AC post and free up the rapid for those who need to charge quickly for what ever reason.
3. They reduce the amount of money which local authorities have to fork out for electricity and maintenance.
4. The reduced cost of operation to local authorities makes it more attractive to apply for funding for additional charge points.
5. The rate of 18p per kWh for AC posts mean that those people without access to home charging are not unduly penalised by having to use public charging, if they were then EVs would be seen as a home owner benefit and socially decisive.

Long term cheaper low power solutions are needed for people without access to home charging but at the moment type 2 AC posts are all we have and providing a subsidy to operate them as well as install them makes sense in terms of developing the market for EVs. 2019s new EVs are 2022s second hand EVs and 2025s third hand EVs which will start to get EVs to the masses. The more new EVs in 2019 the better.


This leads on to the second urgent problem. The lack of a reliable and adequate public rapid charger network in Scotland. We have in general a good spread of charge locations. We do need some additional ones to fill in gaps but what we really need is sufficient capacity to ensure that you can get a charge when you turn up at a charger location. The minimum for a national network ought to be two rapids and a dual AC charge post. We have one site which was planned like this at Skiach Services at Evanton close to the A9 and perhaps less than a dozen other sites which meet this requirement almost all in the Central Belt.

On trunk routes like the A9 and A92 two rapids is not enough and we ought to be seeing 150kW rapids appearing. These might come from commercial operators with some support from the Scottish Government in setting up a site and leasing it to them for a period at a reduced rate to encourage them to start the service.

We need to take account of the fact that much of rural Scotland has low population densities and even established technologies like petrol and diesel struggle to make economic sense in these areas. Its not uncommon to find that the next petrol station is 30 or 40 miles away.

With EV charge locations we need to ensure that they are situated at the right places and that customers can rely on being able to get a charge.

I had a good idea of what the charging network was like when I was getting my current car which is an i3 with a range extender. I use the petrol engine very little but in less than two years the range extender has been used 9 times to get past broken charge points. In almost all cases each one only had a single CCS plug. If I add in the number of chargers which have failed but which I've managed to get past due to stopping to charge at an earlier charger to give me two chances, and those where I have used the i3s ability to charge at 11kW from an AC charger I could easily have been stuck once a month.

Planning and building a national network is the second major item which I think needs to be addressed. I have had a CYC-CPS card for over 5 years now. Surely in 5 years or more of their being a CPS network some one could have sat down and written a plan. I really struggle to understand why Scotland as a country with an aspiration to eliminate the need for new ICE vehicles by 2032 does not have a plan and annual progress reports on how far we have got in terms of delivering it.

noahs-dad
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Re: Forthcoming Meeting with Transport Scotland

Postby noahs-dad » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:56 pm

Martin Lee wrote:Planning and building a national network is the second major item which I think needs to be addressed. I have had a CYC-CPS card for over 5 years now. Surely in 5 years or more of their being a CPS network some one could have sat down and written a plan. I really struggle to understand why Scotland as a country with an aspiration to eliminate the need for new ICE vehicles by 2032 does not have a plan and annual progress reports on how far we have got in terms of delivering it.


That is just it, May's government announced a 2040 date, then about 2 days later Sturgeon was on the TV saying it was 2032 for Scotland. Great one upman ship and stealing the thunder there, and a bit more sensible from Scotland. However with hindsight it appears there was no actual plan or meat on the bones behind the statement of 2032. I think our First Minister may have been guilty of blagging and being opportunistic, that is how it looks? I don't see there is the aspiration to eliminate ICE from England/Wales/Ireland or Scotland, and time and more importantly money, are both short.

The SNP have a good history of delivering on their manifesto and promises, but this one is looking really dubious. They can get away with not delivering on this too as 95% of our population is not interested and does not care about electric driving.


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